I’m an American Latter-day Saint (Mormon) who loves his church and country. My First Principle, or maxim in all religious, political, and philosophic doctrine is, “Teach them correct principles, and allow them to govern themselves. Thus, free agency & persuasion is always superior to force & coercion.”

There are two major categories at LDS Patriot, Mormonism (LDS) and News and politics. Mormonism (LDS) are posts for defending the doctrines, practices and leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons). News and politics are posts for the engagement and discussion news and politics.

At heart I’m an Apologist and Politicker.

Why do I post so much on Islamism or militant Islam?

Islamism is manifested today by any Islamic militants that revolt against regimes in power throughout the Muslim world and exacerbate political conflicts everywhere.

Their jihad, which I know to be an unholy war, is aimed at establishing a global Islamic state based solely on strict interpretation of the Koran (sharia). The political ideology of Islamism is bent on destroying any state, government or people which is not based on their utopian view of Islamic political power and control.

The Muslim Brotherhood used a slogan that is still current in the Islamist movement: “The Koran is our constitution.” Gilles Kepel, Professor of Middle East Studies at the Institute for Political Studies in Paris, writes in his book, Jihad: The Trail of Political Islam, the following

Islam, for the Brothers, was a complete and total system, and there was no need to go looking for European [or American] values as a basis for social order. Everything was made clear in the Koran, whose moral principles, the Brothers claimed, were universal. This doctrine was shared by the entire Islamist movement, whatever their other views. All agreed that the solution to the political problems facing Muslims lay in the setting up of an Islamic state that would implement the law of the sacred texts of Islam-the sharia-as the caliph had done in the past.

One reason I post so frequently about militant Islam is because I believe it to be the secret combination Book of Mormon prophets warned us about.

Ether 8 – Modern Gentiles are warned against the secret combination which shall seek to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries:

16 And they were kept up by the power of the devil to administer these oaths unto the people, to keep them in darkness, to help such as sought power to gain power, and to murder, and to plunder, and to lie, and to commit all manner of wickedness and whoredoms.

17 And it was the daughter of Jared who put it into his heart to search up these things of old; and Jared put it into the heart of Akish; wherefore, Akish administered it unto his kindred and friends, leading them away by fair promises to do whatsoever thing he desired.

18 And it came to pass that they formed a secret combination, even as they of old; which combination is most abominable and wicked above all, in the sight of God;

19 For the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that man should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man.

20 And now I, Moroni, do not write the manner of their oaths and combinations, for it hath been made known unto me that they are had among all people, and they are had among the Lamanites.

21 And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking, and also the destruction of the people of Nephi.

22 And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the blood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for vengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.

23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

25 For it cometh to pass that whoso buildeth it up seeketh to overthrow the freedom of all lands, nations, and countries; and it bringeth to pass the destruction of all people, for it is built up by the devil, who is the father of all lies; even that same liar who beguiled our first parents, yea, even that same liar who hath caused man to commit murder from the beginning; who hath hardened the hearts of men that they have murdered the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out from the beginning.

26 Wherefore, I, Moroni, am commanded to write these things that evil may be done away, and that the time may come that Satan may have no power upon the hearts of the children of men, but that they may be persuaded to do good continually, that they may come unto the fountain of all righteousness and be saved.

D&C 134: 7 … religious opinions not to justify sedition nor conspiracy.

D&C 88: 78-79 …78) Teach ye diligently and my grace shall attend you, that you may be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand; 79) Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms-

  1. Are you sure that its not Apologian? I thought apologia was a work of print, radio, or film; a discourse supporting and defending a particular belief. Apologian, on the other hand, is one who produces such discourse. In any event, your site is great. I enjoy it much – Thanx!

  2. Kenneth, thank you for your kind words! You are correct, a person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution is an apologist, not an apologia. Apologia is indeed a formal written defense of something you believe in strongly. Thanks for helping me set the record straight.

  3. ldspatriot,
    I was interested in the comments on president hinckley’s talk on the 7 years of famine…I took note of the talks but didn’t do the math to come up with seven years between talks.

    The talks made me come to a different conclusion.

    I think his first talk was fulfilled with the stock market crash in 2000 and 9/11 in 2001. The financial markets took a big hit. I think what he was warning us about in his last talk was an earthquake and other disasters that are soon to come. If you interested I will send you my paper on the subject. Nothing brilliant, I’m no writer just my thoughts.

  4. Islamisism is the new imperialsism. It is no different than Catholic Spain. By the sword you shall be converted. We know that this is not Heavenly Father’s way. I am guessing that the next big world war could be the world’s last.

  5. Islam is just another counterfeit of Satan, who will use it to lead millions astray and as a vehicle for extremists.

  6. LDSPatriot…

    I just wanted to address some items that I read in the last 2 entries…about “politics” of extremist groups…not their doctrines as is seeming the misconception.

    I think that we as members of the church need first to focus on the problems within the church…this was the reason for our being asked by Pres. Hinkley to finish the Book of Mormon before the end of last year. (2005)

    I find it interesting that we seem to somehow focus too much outside of ourselves…labeling Islam, and other faiths as “Evil” or as the device of Satan. Yes, true there are those that use these religions as political tools to thwart world peace, wreak havoc and to destroy peace. However, when we label a “religion” or stereotype a “religion,” we are just as bad as those that persecuted the church in the early days…which is disturbing. We, as members of the church would do well to learn from what the early church overcame, and follow the simple teachings and Articles of Faith that were provided us by a prophet…especially the last Article of Faith.

    I have many Muslim friends…I have read the Koran…and no where does it preach violence…it is politics that have made the extremist groups, politics that leads men astray from wise teachings, and politics that could infiltrate our very own ranks and cause us to become “extremists” of our own accord…maybe not violent extremists…but extremists none the less.

    We need to seek counsel of the Lord on these issues…take counsel from our prophet…who at no time ever…I MEAN EVER makes references to other religions as being “evil,” or downgrades others beliefs. He has shown his support and compassion to the religions of the world…and their leaders…even to the deceased Pope has he shown respect…saying that he was a “GREAT” man.

    Take heed of teachings of the Book of Mormon…and the mess that politics caused the Nephites and Lamanites…let’s not make stereotypes…lest “…even the elect shall be deceived.” The secret combinations are within our own “American” society, so lets focus there…with “Skulls and Bones” and any other “club” that has influence and power as a main and secretive theme…

    Islam is not an extremist religion…Muslims are not all extremists…and their scripture and teachings do not propagate Imperialism, or lead people to violence against the west…it is the “politics” and “stirring up to anger” through religious politics that does this. Politicians and leaders use “religion” to stir people up to support their causes…this is the case in Islam and the USA…and many examples of this are in the history books. Politics, not Religion, is responsible for the “Holy War,” because in reading and researching the core doctrines and religions of these opposing forces, both preach peace and tolerance…it is the twisting of doctrines by politics, extremists and fanatics that causes this war…

    Good is good…there are many good Muslims…and there are many Good Christians…and the opposite is true as well. One must take care what we label good and bad…Judging should be left to the only one capable of it…

    What was Christ’s teachings of “The Good Samaritan?” Was it only that a kind man stopped to help him? No, during that time there was labeling and general assumptions made about Samaritans too…and Christ used this example at that time as a means of not “judging” people by the “label” or “belief” that they have…showing that there were good Samaritans too.

    Truth leads to truth my friends…and those actively seeking truth will find it.. They will find it in the Book of Mormon, the Bible…and yes there is truth in the Koran too. Truth is Truth…and it always reveals itself…ALWAYS.

    Gentlemen, before we jump on any band wagon and start labeling other religions…let’s first try to understand that which we place such contempt on, let’s arm ourselves with knowledge and confirmation through prayer. And most of all, let’s not become too “political” with the gospel…as it is a gospel of peace, and a gospel of understanding, and most of all a gospel of tolerance for all…seeking after things that are praiseworthy and of good report.


    P.E. Griswold

  7. I don’t know that I can add to Mr. Griswold’s comment but I sure support it. It is my opinion that extremists should immediately be, by the observer, stripped of any religious affiliation.

    To find a “Robber” look to drugs, sex slavery, politics, porn, and the list goes on. To identify a particular group only closes one’s eyes to all the other dangerous groups.
    RR Millward

  8. The last two posts sound equitable and tolerant, however, when Captain Moroni hung the Title of Liberty out it was an act against a group that tried to overthrow the freedoms of the people. He spoke up and did not mince words or try to “moderate” the response. The same “peace in our time” attitude of placating evil contributes to its strength. Not all Muslims are terrorists BUT all of our terrorist enemies ARE Muslim. A politically correct approach to this is the first step down the primrose path.

  9. Thanks for the comments Dutch, however Captain Moroni was thwarting rebellion from WITHIN…a group threatening to overthrow the government and liberty of the Nation…a sort of treason…and if they would not fight for the liberty of their own lands, and the protection of their own lands, they would be put to death…for treason.

    Not ALL of our terrorists are Muslims…there I kindly disagree with you my friend…I think that we have seen some acts of terrorism from members of our own population…one name comes to mind Timmothy McVay? Theodore John “Ted” Kaczynski…may be another? These 2 attempts were also acts of terror propagated by our own citizens…but we don’t make the claim that members of their religions are terrorists at all…because we know more about them and their culture…and we know that it would be wrong to “label” them because of our knowledge and level of understanding…

    What about all “Mormons” being polygamists? I heard that quite often in Europe during the 7 years that I lived there…does that accurately define us, or a break off from our church and present commandments and doctrines? Clearly not all members of the Church are polygamists…they belong to a group of persons that still follow the old law…a law that contradicts “official” church policy…in fact they belong to another “church” when it comes down to it…

    So, to say that “…all of our terrorist enemies ARE Muslim…” is clearly not the way I see it, or anyone that knows or has Muslim friends…that say themselves that terrorist groups are, “…following a law that contradicts (their) ‘official’ …policy…”

    “All of our terrorists ARE Muslims”…even though they actually belong to another group altogether…that the MAJORITY of Muslims don’t recognize as “true” Muslims.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and the REORGANIZED Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are 2 separate churches that follow the same scriptures…Not at all that I am making any negative references to one or the other of those 2 churches, but the fact that they are 2 SEPARATE entities is the only reason that I am referring to them…which to my knowledge neither of which practice polygamy…

    Labels and stereotypes are dangerous…and when we deal with people and society in absolutes, then we demonize, hurt and scorn innocent people that are living life the best that they can and know how to; the Lord loves all of us…not just some. He preaches tolerance my friend…tolerance for all of us…including persons of other faiths, creeds, cultures and religions…for ALL persons.

    I make no judgments on how it is you or anyone chooses to educate yourselves or chose to view the world as a whole, that is the great blessing of Free Agency…and Accountability. To each their own, and of their own accord. Truth will always reveal itself…eventually.

    Speaking of a “primrose path” has no place here my friend…but if that is your contention that through being tolerant and understanding of the world around us…is your idea of “political correctness,” I assure you that many people wholeheartedly aspire and try to be a persons of tolerance, peace, charity and understanding towards all people…that is what we are asked to do.

    Who am I to judge, or make statements about you or anyone else for that matter? I didn’t pay the price for you or anyone’s sins…nor could I even if I tried…


    Alma the younger desired to preach the Gospel to the Lamanites…enemies of the Nephites…he held no anger or judgment towards them, quite possibly because he himself had seen the galls of hell…and realized how easy it is to be misled, deceived and mistaken. So, was Alma successful?

    Samuel the Lamanite prophesied to whom? The Nephites, who were led astray to be proud and haughty with their blessings…becoming vain and complacent with the blessings that our Heavenly Father had given them for living worthily and humblely. Was Samuel the Lamanite successful?

    Why was Alma successful and Samuel not?

    Some final thoughts…


    Did the Nephites in the times of Mormon, (Father of Moroni), show the Lamanites tolerance or contempt…and what happened as a result of it? Where did this behavior start? How did the Nephites become the way they did?


    Do you think that there is a good reason that Pres. Hinkley asked us all to read the Book of Mormon cover to cover within the year of 2005? Don’t you think that he was prompted or asked to do so through the spirit…before the same problems arose in our own modern day society?

    With warmest of intentions to you Dutch and everyone else…Have a very Happy New Year!


    P.E. Griswold

  10. I remember Tim McVey but aren’t we discussing Islamism?

    Tolerance is a misunderstood word. I think it is not a neutral term. We can be tolerant of different beliefs, faiths and opinions. The problem with tolerance is it a label. If you are “tolerant” you are good. Should you be “inolerant” you are bad. Tolerance gives life to true evil such as war, pornography, and violent crime. Watch television and see the above increase in frequency. Does society then mirror these behaviors? Of course. Tolerance is not a neutral term.

    Were all Germans Nazi’s? No. Should we have been tolerant of Hitler’s policies in order not to stereotype Germans? I am 100% in favor of being personally tolerant of individuals and their beliefs UNTIL these beliefs lead to an action that is evil. Evil is an absolute and is not relative.

    In the Book of Mormon the Nephites/Ammonites did respond forcefully when attacked by evil (from enemies foreign or domestic). They did everything to avoid conflict but when faced with it they had to be honest in facing their enemies. Labels and stereotypes ARE dangerous when used with the intention to inflict evil acts upon innocent people. Muslim terrorists did attack our country. Their motivation was based on their religious values and have stated that we will continue to be attacked until we accept Islam. This is clear. It is not a discussion of plural marriage or doctrinal differences.

    I am not thin-skinned and feel no ill will from this discussion. I believe we are just talking as in a barber shop…among friends.

  11. Greg Ricks — next time you check in on this blog please drop me a line. Bill Grant (Xavier University 91) did some work with you through COOL way back in the day.

  12. TOLERANCE \Tol”er*ance\, n. [L. tolerantia: cf. F.
    n 1: the power or capacity of an organism to tolerate unfavorable
    environmental conditions
    2: a disposition to allow freedom of choice and behavior [syn:
    permissiveness] [ant: unpermissiveness]
    3: the act of tolerating something
    5: a permissible difference; allowing some freedom to move
    within limits [syn: allowance, leeway, margin]

    (From Webster’s Dictionary)
    1. The power or capacity of enduring; the act of enduring;
    [1913 Webster]

    2. The endurance of the presence or actions of objectionable
    persons, or of the expression of offensive opinions;
    [1913 Webster]

    The agreed upon, universal definition(s) is/are defined above…that is why we have these books, so that we can all be on the same page with everyone…and have the same understanding…to unify our reasoning. Re-defining, or rationalizing a definition is misleading…Tolerant has no relevance to Good or Bad..

    Remember, Christ Unifies…and so do those that truly follow him…that is how we may recognize each other…as Christ-like.

    Muslims are loved by our Heavenly Father just as much as anyone else is…that love is impartial and unconditional…and he does have a plan for EVERYONE, but it is ultimately our own decission that decides the outcome…

    Who are we to judge?

    Not for the sake of being right, but it was EXTREMISTS that attacked our country…so it is not, “…Muslim terrorists…” It was also EXTREMISTS that attacked our country in the cases of McVay and Kaczynski…all acts of terrorism ARE extreme…

    EXTREME \Ex*treme”\, a. [L. extremus, superl. of exter, extrus,
    on the outside, outward: cf. F. extr[^e]me. See Exterior.]

    1. At the utmost point, edge, or border; outermost; utmost;
    farthest; most remote; at the widest limit.
    [1913 Webster]

    2. Last; final; conclusive; — said of time; as, the extreme
    hour of life.
    [1913 Webster]

    3. The best of worst; most urgent; greatest; highest;
    immoderate; excessive; most violent; as, an extreme case;
    extreme folly. “The extremest remedy.” –Dryden. “Extreme
    rapidity.” –Sir W. Scott.
    [1913 Webster]

    Yet extreme gusts will blow out fire. –Shak.
    [1913 Webster]

    4. Radical; ultra; as, extreme opinions.
    [1913 Webster]

    The Puritans or extreme Protestants. –Gladstone.
    [1913 Webster]

    5. (Mus.) Extended or contracted as much as possible; — said
    of intervals; as, an extreme sharp second; an extreme flat
    [1913 Webster]

    An extremist is defined as such:

    EXTREMIST\Ex*trem”ist\, n.
    A supporter of extreme doctrines or practice; one who holds
    EXTREME opinions.
    [1913 Webster]


    Extremists of any ideology are dangerous, because they will stop at nothing to be right…or to be recognized as such.

    We must all be careful…all of us as members of the church, as members of our communities and as members of democracy…that we don’t become EXTREME in our views, or believe that we are “superior” to others…

    I have no desire to argue or discuss this further…if I did, it would be just for the sake of pride or the sake of the arguement…and there are no winners in an argument.


    P.E. Griswold


    Why is there no LDS Church policy on this?

    This past Sunday I objected in Branch
    Conference when the Stake President asked for any objections to their
    decision for the new Branch President, who to my knowledge is one of
    many illegal aliens in our branch.

    Let me say right off that I am very fond of this brother and have much
    admiration for him. He is one of the good apples, the kind of person
    that I would like to see become a citizen of this great country.

    I met with the Stake President after sacrament meeting and he told me
    that he does not know whether this brother is her legally or not and
    that that is not something that they ask. Among other things I told
    him that the brother’s own children say that their parents are not in
    this country legally and that I would meet the brother to ask him
    myself. I did, and this brother could not tell me, “Yes, I am in this
    country legally.” He just kept giving me excuses, although he did
    tell me that he and his wife have felt like they are “stealing

    One of their sons is on a mission now. Because he was not in the US
    legally the Church required that he leave the US and live in his
    homeland for at least 6 months before he left to go from there on his
    mission. There is no church policy like this regarding illegal aliens
    serving as Church leaders. Why?

  14. The Ambassadors

    Nice blog. I love to see that LDS members are starting to discover the Blogosphere and use it as a tool to do Missionary Work!

  15. Marion G. Romney in “The Rule of Law,” Ensign, Feb 1973, 2 said:

    “The law of Christ” is all-inclusive. It concerns not only rules that shall govern beyond the grave, but also the law of nature here and now-local, national, and international. Latter-day Saints should strictly obey the laws of the government in which they live. By our own declaration of faith we are committed to do so, for we declare to the world that “we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” (A of F 1:12.) This we do in harmony with the Lord’s command: “Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land. “Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.” (D&C 58:21-22.) “Civil authority is of divine origin. It may be more or less adapted to the needs of man; more or less just and benevolent, but, even at its worst, it is better than anarchy. Revolutionary movements that aim at the abolition of government itself are contrary to the law of God. …” (Doctrine and Covenants Commentary [Deseret Book Co., 1954], p. 339.) When the “rule of law” breaks down in a family, a community, a state, or a nation, chaos reigns.”

    My question is how can the Church wilfully ignore this issue regarding baptism (and/or membership in full fellowship) of people who enter and remain in countries illegally? If I were a criminal or in violation of the law I would necessarily fail the honesty test at a baptismal interview and certainly I would run afoul of the injunction against lawlessness.

    This is increasingly becoming a point of discussion among LDS folks in light of the chaos at the border, political, public health and economic problems posed by illegals and increasing presence of illegals in our communities. The discussion centers in part on the apparent ambivalence of LDS authorities regarding the illegal status of people taught by missionaries where the Church seems to be either intentionally looking the other way or very aware of their status yet baptizes them anyway.

  16. I have several questions…

    The land that we inhabit is to be inherited by whom?


    Whom is “promised” and inheritance of this land?

    We, as gentiles, are only permitted an inheritance of this land of liberty in accordance to “humbling ourselves” being contrite and following the tenants of the Gospel.

    Read 3 Nephi 16:10

    If we (Gentiles) are “…lifted up in the pride of OUR (their) hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth…and if they (WE) do all those things…I (The Lord) will bring the fullness of my gospel from among them.”

    Who’s land is this to grant an inheritance?

    3 Nephi 16:16

    ” Verily, verily, I say unto you, thus hath the Father commanded me—-that I should give unto THIS people THIS land for their inheritance”

    Of course it is Heavenly Father’s…so if we read throughout the Book of Mormon, we can see that we are only allowed to be here…much as the Nephites…with the same demands upon us for those promises.

    “Some” immigrants are here illegally in accordance to “man’s” law…and I agree that it would be better for them to immigrate legally; however, when we realize that we are to impart of “our” substance and “lands” to the poor and the needy…especially those in impoverished regions…then we should not make an issue and judge these people for wanting a better life for themselves and their families.

    These people are baptised, they accept the gospel and are numbered in the church…who are we to judge the circumstances of their getting the chance at a better life, and a better chance for their salvation?

    We, as “Gentiles,” are “allowed” to be here through Heavenly Father’s will and our own adherence to his laws. But we should remember and search the Book of Mormon, and the scriptures about the promises given to the people that inherited this land before us. PRAY ABOUT IT…

    We know whom these people are, and we know that it will be literal descendants of the “Lamanites” that will again inherit this land in the times preceding the second coming, or in the times of the second coming.

    Isaiah even prophisized that the house of israel would “inherit” the “Gentiles.”

    But we should be careful when we “Judge” according to “Man’s” law…because the Lord will go before us and gather the flocks…and will go before us and prepare the way…in accordance to his will and the will of Heavenly Father.

    Whom are we to judge the means by which the Lord’s flock are gathered. There is plenty of land and opportunity here, and if we are truly charitable then we are joyous over those that have come into our country and have entered into a covenant with our Heavenly Father.

    Will there be some who won’t be baptised? Of course…but this land is ours only because we adhere to the Gospel principles…much like the Nephites. And if we begin to turn our backs on these persons, then we have much to repent of.

    The commitment of these persons that do take upon them the covenant, is the first step to helping them…and this should never become a “political” debate within the church.

    “…render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s…” The law of the land should be questioned here…not the Church or the gospel for that matter…

    I would ask any of you to stay in impoverished and dangerous communities, facing starvation, deceipt, cruelty, inequity…and no chance to provide “freedom” or “opportunity” or “safety” for your children and families…then make a judgment from their understanding.

    How many of us would do this very thing in order for our families to eat, have shelter, have opportunity and freedom?

    We often forget that we inherited this land, just as the Nephites did, and if we become to proud and to prude to understand others motivation for wanting to come to this beloved land; and when we start making debates of the Lord’s work and covenant that he offers to ALL people…regardless of their immigration status…we have a GREAT need to start looking into our own hearts and reinforcing our own testimony of the everlasting gospel.



  17. I could not disagree more with you. In the first place we didn’t inherit this land it was won in conquest or purchased from others who applied political and military might to wrest it from former inhabitants.

    It is a matter of fundamental doctrine in the Church (which has incidentally flourished under this Constitution and the laws of this land) that repentance comes before baptism. The Church should not be facilitating lawlessness and its members should not be ambivalent about outlaws flouting the laws of the land.

    This isn’t merely about Mexicans. If we are going to say that it is OK for Mexicans to infiltrate this country and remain as outlaws then it surely is OK for Muslims including terrorists.

    When their first act upon entry to our country is violation of federal criminal statues with a Gadianton Robber-like attitude regarding entitlements, political influence and open flouting of the law I kind of get the feeling that these folks are not exactly enamored of our country and are no more likely to obey the laws of God than of man.

  18. Allyn E. Rowley

    I am not LDS, but am familiar with the Church and have family who are members. I am happy to see that LDS Patriot seems aware of the dangers and the evil that is Islam. I find it absolutely unbelieveable that Griswold claims to have read to Qur’an and finds no violence. The 4 English translations I am familiar with are certainly filled with it….and I have read it completely.

    I also find it difficult to understand why the Church seems not to be warning members that this is an evil religion. LDS learn, from the Pearl of Great Price, that the war in Heaven was fought against Lucifer’s plan that he be given dominion over the earth so he could insure than none transgressed and all could return to Heaven free from sin. Just how could and would he have done that? Could he have somehow changed human nature to make us totally unsusceptible to fleshly enticings? Could he have immunized us against evil or temptation? Could he have bound all those who choose to profit by breaking laws and doing evil deeds?

    Hardly. It seems that the only way he could have prevented mankind from sinning during mortality would be by making the consequencs so horrific that none would dare. This is what Islam does. Steal a loaf of bread and loose a hand. Commit sexual transgression and be stoned to death or lashed at the least. Blashpheme Muhammad, Allah, the Qur’an or apostasize and loose your head. Oh, yes, female genital mutilation will help keep the sisters from becoming too willing. “Muta” or short-term marriage for an hour or a weekend will make it easy for the brethren to resist fornication. As many as 4 wives plus permission to have sexual relations with one’s slaves should keep randy males from infidelty

    I recall hearing an LDS neighbor who had lived in Riyahd, Saudi Arabia, for some time state how she felt perfectly safe walking the streets alone in any part of the city at any time of day or night. Probably, when the consequences of even purse-snatching could have meant loss of a hand and a foot from opposite sides of the body.

    Today we are beset by a flood of Islamist propaganda from Muslim civil rights groups and propaganda organizations. Our legislators are beholden to Islamic funding sources and their lobbyists. Our Professors of Islamic studies and departments of Mid-Eastern studies are awash in Saudi endowments. Saudi biillions are providing mosques, Muslim Student Associations, Muslim schools, Islamic Cultural Centers and sending Muslim missionaries to convert our incarcerated populations and university students to Islam and radicalize our “moderate Muslim citizens and especially their American-born children. Does not the Church see this?

    The Muslim representative to an international interfaith dialogue held in Turkey boldly proclaimed to the non-Muslim representatives of Western democracies, including the Catholic Archbishop of Izmir, “Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you. Thanks to our religious laws we will dominate you.”

    Please reassure me that the General Authorities are knowledgeable and making the members aware that the Allah of the Muslims is not the Heavenly Father of the Mormons!

    A. E. Rowley
    San Juan Capistrano, CA

  19. It is OK to disagree and I respect opinions that are well thought out such as yours.

    I don’t dispute the claims of entry and immigration issues…when it comes to the laws of our land needing to be stiffened. I agree that immigration is a big issue that needs to be solved.

    However are we judging this person that was mentioned in the previous entry that
    Bishop Illegal Alien has mentioned, or the idea of immigration as a whole?

    As Bishop Illegal Alien has stated:

    “…I am very fond of this brother and have much admiration for him. He is one of the good apples, the kind of person
    that I would like to see become a citizen of this great country.”

    If we are judging this person for coming here illegally…do we really know him? Do we know the circumstances that he has? Do we even know if he was baptised after immigrating illegally to the USA?

    This is why I feel that we need to separate the issues of immigration for the whole population of illegals, and the immigration laws that our country needs to enforce…and change, might I add….

    …to those of the individual that quite possibly may have come here illegally before he was baptised…these are details that we don’t know…nor should we make it our business to pry into this “good apple’s” life and make accusations of something which we know little about.

    I firmly believe that we as persons need to have an opinion of equal or lesser value in proportion to the information and knowledge that we have on the subject. We as Americans tend to often have a huge opinion of things based upon “Hersey” and things that are often opinions of others, that are sometimes not well researched. Often times our opinions severely out-weigh the amount of information that we have to support it.

    Eric, I am only speaking about this individual “good apple,” and any others that are setting their foot onto the path of salvation.

    I agree with you 100% in relation to the laws that govern immigration in this country…it is a system that needs repair. We also have to understand that the laws of the land focus on moral behaviors of the population or society, with little regard for the individual.

    The law of the land, and the gospel have 2 different focuses.

    The law of the land, which may or may not change in Constance and congruity of the will of the people…is something that we can have an effect on…this is a blanket for all of society…which should be followed…and it focuses on groups and societies.

    The gospel laws relate to the individual…and are constant…and are personally accounted for. The gospel focuses on individual salvation…and that individual person’s relationship with Christ and our Heavenly Father. The laws that pertain to the gospel are there…1. faith in the Lord Jesus Christ…2. Repentance….3. Baptism by immersion…and 4. Confirming of the Holy Ghost upon that person. These things relate to the individual…and grow out from the individual to encompass those that have successfully developed this personal relationship with the God-head. (The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost)

    Now whether this or these individuals are allowed to be baptised is between them and their Father in Heaven, and the bishop receives confirmation through the power of discernment as to whether this person is worthy…and can, or should be baptised.

    Are there “individual” bishops that don’t use the spirit for this confirmation? I am sure there are…

    In this case, Bishops are individuals and are subject to being human, but it isn’t the policy of the church that allows this to happen…it is the policy of man…men whom don’t exercise the spirit in the ways that they should…but in ways that we all pray that they do.

    Eric, I wholeheartedly agree with your opinion of our countries laws when it pertains to this immigration problem, it is something that needs to be investigated and changed based upon the information we gather.

    However, when it comes to an individual being baptised and becoming a member of good standing, this debate is one that is questioning the policies of the Church and the Gospel. This is where I differ my dear friend, because we can not judge the individual…or individuals that allow for these persons to be partakers of salvation.

    The Church is an organization that promotes and follows the gospel as its “iron rod.” The gospel of Christ is unique, it requires a broken heart and contrite spirit within the individual…and if an individual doesn’t present these things…then the “personal” relationship with our Father in Heaven, and his son Jesus Christ is effected.

    If this man whom Bishop Illegal Alien has mentioned is an outstanding member of the church, whether he was baptised after immigrating or not, then he is on the right path…a path that we should also be on…

    The relationship one has with Jesus Christ should not EVER be judged or put under scrutiny…only by Christ himself. He reveals truth…”he is the light that shineth in darkness, and darkness know it not…”

    John the Baptist also was accused of baptising persons that some deemed “unworthy” due to the social circumstances of that time by Pharisees and Sadducees…whom were worthy and manifested to him through the spirit.

    Eric in talking about entitlement, I would as you whom is entitled to receive baptism? Whom does Christ and our Father in Heaven bare and stretch their arm out to?

    The debate of legality and laws of the land I think we are in agreement on…but in pertaining to the gospel and the gift that IS PPROMISED TO ALL…whom come to him with a broken heart and contrite spirit…we have a difference of opinion on whom is accountable, and where the responsibilities truly lie…

    I don’t believe that we should blame the Church, or it’s policies for something that is clearly not responsible for; when to me, clearly this is something between the individual and their Father in Heaven.

    Christ set this precedent:

    “…render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and unto God what is God’s…”

    Kindest regards,


  20. We discriminate against people who break the law because that is the purpose of law to begin with.

    God’s law requires that people render to Caesar. President Romney made that crystal clear:

    “The law of Christ” is all-inclusive. It concerns not only rules that shall govern beyond the grave, but also the law of nature here and now-local, national, and international. Latter-day Saints should strictly obey the laws of the government in which they live. By our own declaration of faith we are committed to do so, for we declare to the world that “we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” (A of F 1:12.) This we do in harmony with the Lord’s command: “Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land. “Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.” (D&C 58:21-22.) “Civil authority is of divine origin. It may be more or less adapted to the needs of man; more or less just and benevolent, but, even at its worst, it is better than anarchy. Revolutionary movements that aim at the abolition of government itself are contrary to the law of God. …” (Doctrine and Covenants Commentary [Deseret Book Co., 1954], p. 339.) When the “rule of law” breaks down in a family, a community, a state, or a nation, chaos reigns.”

    It’s pretty simple. That’s God’s law. So far as I am aware there is no requirement in Caesar’s law to render to God. We are supposed to be obedient. Disobedience is unworthiness.

    It is beyond stunning that outlaws can be called as branch presidents or bishops. From whence does their moral authority derive if not personal worthiness? By fiat of ordination? If so, then people once ordained can behave basically however they want to.

    Let me ask you this: If a man is called to serve as a branch president and he is an outlaw, if one of his members is a Border Patrol agent who becomes aware of this, why should that member not arrest the branch president? If he did so what would be the result among the members?

    No. It is unacceptable. What other crimes can members commit and still be retained in leadership positions? I’d like a list.

    Outlaws are not worthy to be leaders or even of baptism because they have made a personal choice to commit a crime, compounded it with dishonesty and daily continue the offense. Most if not all also commit other crimes including false documents:

    Why on earth do we want to pretend this is remotely OK?

  21. Hey. I enjoy reading your writing. I’m in the process of discovering how I feel on certain issues and I’ve started blogging as I explore. I came across some correspondance from Shaun Knapp – you probably know of him. Will you read my post and tell me what you think?

  22. Eric,

    Clearly this is a difficult case…pray about it…ask for a peaceful feeling to confirm what actions you should take.

    Anger towards the Church isn’t the answer my friend…

    The law of the land is clearly to be followed…that is a given…and is as you stated “official” policy. And when another person breaks that law, then yes it does mandate consequences…both legally and spiritually.

    Clearly we are in agreement on the issues, however I would beg of you to not let this fester…it isn’t good for a person to hold on to things such as this. If needs be, talk to the proper authorities about it…see if you can come to some sort of understanding of why it happened, and what Heavenly Father’s will is concerning this.

    I just don’t feel that it helps anything to judge the man, because we aren’t here to do this…and we often aren’t able to see a higher purpose in these things. And we should remember that we get the same severity of judgment that we give others…

    I sense anger and resentment in your comment my friend, and that is something that I know a little about.

    I know this personally, I was inactive for over 15 years because of a situation where I couldn’t comprehend the actions or comments of some members of the Church.

    It all started though when I became angry and started finding fault with the church because of the actions of some of it’s members; which eventually led me to question the Church, and latter to become bitter towards it.

    I spent years away from the Church in a volentary exile, telling myself that I would return as soon as I saw some evident changes. Oh, I saw evident changes Eric, but they were changes in me.

    Reality? What helped me to come to a deep understanding was several things.

    First was that the Church isn’t perfect…because it is an organization that is made up of people. People aren’t perfect; but that is what the Gospel is about striving to attain perfection through Christ.

    Second was that I was eventually humbled, and my anger and frustration faded away.

    And third, during a prayer the spirit confirmed to me that the Church, even though not perfect, tries 100% to follow the true Gospel of Christ, which is perfect. Errors are made Eric, that is the ways of mortality, and that is the purpose behind the atonement.

    This comforts me, to know that nothing can change the fact that the Gospel is perfect, and that Christ’s teachings are too; and as long as we individually have a relationship with our Savior, we will know his will.

    Knowing that people aren’t perfect, and not demanding that everyone be perfect, gives us room for understanding a higher purpose of things. It also gives us a chance to earn some of the mercy that we will all need one day soon enough.

    Eric, it is important to realize that this man and those who may or may not have called him to a position of authority…will have to answer for any wrong doing that may have happened. The most important thing to secure is your own testimony of the gospel, and not to let this situation fester within you, or drive you away from the church as happened to me in the past.

    I beg of you Eric to pray about it, see if you can obtain answers directly first. If you can’t, take it to someone that can help you find the answers.

    One last thought that I have Eric, and please know that it is in kindness that I ask this question.

    Have you ever gone over the speed limit? (I know I have many times) Keep in mind that this is a law of the land as well, and even if you didn’t get a speeding ticket, it is also not adhering to the laws of the land.

    If we are considering the “breaking of the law,” even though not caught, a determining factor of salvation then we are almost all guilty of the same thing. Law is Law, right?

    Well, thankfully there are two sides to justice, there is law and there is mercy. The law is there, it must be followed, and if we go by the law, not one of us makes it.

    Mercy is what we all must receive, or else not one of us would have a chance of Salvation. Mercy is Heavely Father’s way of making up for where we fall short; because we all do fall short, every last one of us. It is only through the mercy that Christ gave his life to attone for us that we are given that chance, all of us.

    We must show mercy to others to obtain mercy for ourselves.

    I know that I need as much as I can get, and I equally know that everyone else does too.

    God bless you Eric in your journey to find the answers, you are in my prayers.


  23. Uh yeah. Thanks there Sam. I think your prayers are misplaced. Rather you should be praying for people who decide to commit crimes and working to secure the borders and prevent this from happening.

    I don’t make it a practice to pray over things that I am neither confused nor conflicted about and, you have completely misread my feelings. I am not angry with the Church. I am deeply disappointed with people in it who facilitate lawlessness in the face of express counsel to the contrary and who are evidently so intellectually challenged that they don’t even perceive the threat posed by Bennett’s legislation and the practice of using it to our advantage. This isn’t about Mexicans. When we aid and abet illegal aliens because Bennett’s legislation made it possible the Church gains the benefit of their labor. But when Imams in this country taking advantage of the same legislation to aid an abet illegals the people they are aiding didn’t come from Tijuana to pick grapefruits.

  24. How about this Sam? Do we need to pray about whether illegals like these should be facilitated by mosques just so our Church can do the same with other outlaws? No. It’s not necessary to pray about whether we should support the law abiding.

    Terrorist plot in Cherry Hill, NJ; illegal aliens among alleged plotters;
    a John Doe turned them in; press conference at 2:30pm Eastern;
    Fort Dix has been a refuge for ethnic Albanians; details from the complaint

    By Michelle Malkin · May 08, 2007 08:26 AM

    Soldiers at Fort Dix: Targeted by jihadists

    Update: The names of the suspects via one of the filed complaints:

    Dritan Duka (illegal alien); Eliver Duka (illegal alien); Shain Duka (illegal alien)
    Serdar Tatar (the pizza deliverer…his family owns a pizzeria near Ft. Dix)
    Mohamad Shnewer; Agron Abdullahu

    Via Allahpundit: According to CBS News, Shnewer is from Jordan and is the lone (naturalized) U.S. citizen of the six; Tatar, from Turkey, and Abdallahu, from the former Yugoslavia, are legal permanent residents.

    From the FBI affidavit, here’s the John Doe moment:

    The plotters watched videos of armed attacks on US soldiers, studied the last will and testament of at least two of the 9/11 hijackers, and watched bin Laden exhortations to jihad. They plotted with an FBI informant:

    Here’s a glimpse at their surveillance trips:

    They trained, stocked up on weapons, and plotted for the next six months. By February, they were up to this:

    At one point, they contemplated joining the military to wage jihad from the inside:


    The Philadelphia Inquirer reports on a thwarted terrorist plot to kill soldiers at Fort Dix: (hat tip- reader David B.)

    The FBI arrested five people in Cherry Hill and one in Pennsylvania last night for an alleged plot to kill soldiers at Fort Dix, a federal official said. Some of the six men, who are Algerian [Albanian] citizens, tried to purchase automatic weapons from a local gun dealer, the source said. Carolee Nisbet, a public information officer at Fort Dix, said: “I understand that they weren’t just targeting Fort Dix, that it was a multiple-base plan to attack several bases in the Northeast.” She declined to elaborate. At the base this morning, Nisbet said: “They are going to make the security procedures more stringent, but we’re not going to increase the threat level. We are just going to make people more aware of their surroundings. WNBC-TV in New York reports that three of the men are brothers and followers of Islam, and have lived in the United States for several years. Five of the men are expected to be arraigned in federal court in Camden today.

    Updates galore here and here.

    PJM notes that a press conference is scheduled for 2:30pm Eastern.

    This won’t be a surprise to many of you. Not to me:

    Federal investigators last night arrested six Islamic radicals who were planning a heavily-armed attack against soldiers at Fort Dix as part of a jihad against America, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office.

    In a statement released this morning to confirm a report on The Star-Ledger’s Web site, the U.S. Attorney’s Office said the men planned to “kill as many soldiers as possible.”

    Officials would not comment beyond the brief statement. But two law enforcement sources said the men had conducted surveillance of the Army base and were caught allegedly attempting to purchase AK-47s to carry out their plan.

    The bust came after several of them were lured to a meeting with an arms-seller who turned out to be a secret FBI informant, said both sources, who requested anonymity because they were not authorized to speak about the arrests.

    Some of the would-be attackers have been illegally in the United States, while others are illegal immigrants, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office. Four are ethnic Albanians, one was born in Turkey, and a sixth was born in Jordan, according to the U.S. Attorney’s Office.

    And it looks like we have an alert John Doe to thank for helping to turn the plotters in:

    “They were prepared to die,” said the law enforcement source. “We became increasingly convinced this was for real and these guys were ready to roll.”

    The FBI had the group under surveillance for more than a year, the source said. The men had scouted out Dover Air Force Base and Fort Monmouth before settling on Fort Dix, a base that is used to mobilize troops to Iraq, said the source.

    The men – several of whom were in the same family – had videotaped their practice sessions in the Poconos, the source said. That videotape, in which they railed against America, led to their arrests.

    The men made the mistake of bringing it to a retail store, seeking to get a copy burned to a DVD, according to one of the sources. A store employee who later watched the tape called the FBI who began immediately investigating.

    Store employee, whoever you are: thank you. Watch your back. The CAIR-mongers may be on their way.


    What a way to show their gratitude. Flashback June 1999:

    The sounds of Islamic calls to prayer echo across Fort Dix, temporary host to thousands of ethnic Albanians who fled war-ravaged Kosovo. But the U.S. Army base will soon play final taps for the refugee resettlement program that should end this month.

    “I feel like I’m in a paradise,” one Kosovar explained, as she described the base that has been a haven for about 4,000 refugees.

    With nationwide settlement efforts in full swing, the military has no plans to bring other refugees to the makeshift village.

    So far, 500 Kosovars have been relocated; about 100 are scheduled to leave daily. All the refugees should know by mid-June where they will be going, officials said.

    “This was always intended to be a temporary facility,” said Michael Kharfen, spokesman for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

    After arriving at Fort Dix from camps in Macedonia, the refugees received medical checkups, security clearances and U.S. government documents.

    More on how our military welcomed the refugees:

    FORT DIX, N.J., June 15, 1999 – For those meeting planes and buses bearing Kosovo’s ethnic Albanians, welcoming war-weary refugees to the United States was like stepping into America’s past.

    “We want to welcome these people to America the way we might wish our grandparents and great-grandparents had been welcomed to Ellis Island,” U.S. Army Gen. Mitchell M. Zais, said he had told troops assigned to Operation Provide Refuge…The general, head of Joint Task Force Provide Refuge, said he recalled his own family history as the first planeload of about 450 refugees came down the ramp May 5 at McGuire Air Force Base, N.J. “The babushka-covered ladies looked as I imagined my grandmother looked when she came across the gangplank at Ellis Island — an illiterate peasant refugee from Central Europe, driven out of Kiev by the pogroms,” he said…

    …Fort Dix was the place to go for the more than 4,000 Kosovar refugees who arrived here in May. Landing at McGuire after a 13- hour trans-Atlantic charter flight, they boarded buses for a quick ride to this quiet, tree-lined Army Reserve post. A former basic training center, Fort Dix offered a temporary safe haven, and a host of service members, civilians and volunteers worked to make the refugees comfortable.

    …Zais gathered a team of about 80 soldiers from the U.S. Army Reserve Command in Atlanta and about 200 soldiers from the airborne corps and other units from Fort Bragg, N.C. The New Jersey National Guard assumed the lead in partnership with the American Red Cross in coordinating charitable donations from private individuals, U.S. corporations, church groups and other organizations.

    With the help of Fort Dix officials, the military went to work to support the refugee camp named “The Village.” The military also supported the relief effort’s interagency task force, headed by the Health and Human Services Department and including federal agencies, nongovernment resettlement organizations and volunteer groups.

    …Shortly after the first Albanians arrived, Zais said, a foreign reporter asked if it was appropriate to bring these refugees to a military installation after they had been traumatized by Serb soldiers in Kosovo. The general replied that only the Yugoslav army uniform would strike terror in their hearts.

    “It’s been my experience in Vietnam, in Korea, in the Middle East, and everywhere else I’ve traveled through Central and South America, that the American soldier is loved around the world for his compassion and generosity,” he said. “The only people who fear American soldiers are those who have a good reason to.”

    More on Fort Dix’s Operation Provide Refuge.

    Flashback 1999: American soldiers welcome ethnic Albanian refugees to Ft. Dix


  25. I was just reading about this article that you mentioned on Fort Dix…Troubling. What can we say? We live in very troubled times…and they are more than likely going to get worse…But I am glad that the FBI was doing their job in this case.

    Eric, unfortunately anyone that has a strong enough desire to commit murder or acts of terror, will probably eventually come close to doing so…and in some cases succeed. The people that are willing to sacrifice their life for a cause, will often times do anything to get through the lines and deep into the heart of the targeted area to inflict the most damage as possible, to create turmoil and fear.

    This is sad, and I agree that we should from this learn that we should make some changest to our immigration background checks. But we have made a lot of very unhappy people in the world due to our “policies” and tendancy to be “warmongers.”

    Look at ourselves from the perspective of many of the people that get mislead into joining one of these groups. In many cases it is because of hypocracy and failed promises that they are persuaded and brainwashed into hating the USA.

    How many leaders have we supported financially and covertly through our governmental handout of money, weapons and training, that have turned around and become our enemies?

    There are quite a few examples of this, we support someone because they are fighting a common enemy…we promise aid, weapons and protection to them and then turn our backs…often to their detrement. They are our friends because we have a common enemy…but once that enemy isn’t important anymore, we abandon them and their people, and let them fend for themselves, never making good on our promises. Often times the only thing that they received from us, is what they use…WEAPONRY.

    Osama…supported by who?

    Noriega…supported by who?

    Saddam…supported by who?

    Our own leaders have created a lot of the mess that we face now, through crooked politics and policies.

    I think it is estimated that 1 of every 4 rounds fired in WW2 fired by the enemy was funded and built in factories that were supported financially or owned by American venture capitalists. These figures are startling, but never come to the light, because we would be disgusted to know that some of our own leaders and business investors made money off of the killing of our own soldiers.

    Yes, we definately live in troubled times that were prophisized in the Book of Mormon…secret combinations are alive and well in our own government.

    If we aren’t careful, and if we fail to pray about everything, we may fail to see the bigger picture.

    All we can do is humble ourselves, hope for a better moral of our people, and pray often to know the will of the Lord.

    The same things that happened to the Nephite societies, is unfolding within our own society. Inequality is not of the Lord, and we should humble ourselves and be prepared, the signs are startling.

    All of the prophecies will come true, and the Lord will come in a time that we are “ripened in iniquity.”

    Iniquity is INEQUALITY…and we can see this equality become more and more trampled as our leaders continue to make war for “national interests.” I personally find it interesting that we have several top leaders that are “venture capitalists,” whom own stocks and invest in Oil, and weapons manufacturing…2 things that are very profitable at present.

    We need prayer, we need to know the will of our Father in Heaven, we need to follow Christ’s example…and that can only be done through humble prayer.

    If we don’t do this or recognize that we should pray often, then I fear for our future…


  26. You keep missing the point andalong with it the bigger picture. Of course evil people will be evil. The question before you is why we should either as a Church or as members of the Church want to in any way associate ourselves with outlaws or utilize a law expressly designed to hide, aid and abet outlaws so that we (the LDS Church) can get service from them (that’s the reason Bennett says the law was drafted) when that very law exposes the nation to greater risk of terrorism and encourages lawlessness?

    This isn’t about loving our neighbors or caring for the less fortunate. It is about stopping lawlessness and unless we can do that we will not be in a position to help anyone. The morality of a nation can be measured as a snapshot of individual decisions -whether or not to break laws for example. We have been counseled by prophets, it is in our scripture and expressly stated in the Articles of Faith that we are to be law abiding. Members who support the erosion of sovereignty and law are exactly like the whited sepluchres Jesus spoke of. It all looks good on the outside but within is an unwilling disobedient spirit and one which elevates personal opinion over the law. Precisely what the Lord condemned when he said: “obedience is better than sacrifice.”

    This matter is not one that requires prayer, except to the extent we pray for the border patrol and the INS to improve interdiction and for people here illegally to begin to comply with the law.

    I can think of few things more iniquitous than chronic disobedience to the laws of God and man. The laws of the U.S. on this can scarcely be said to be immoral. They exist for public safety and for the domestic tranquility -you know those things charged to government in the Constitution (that’s a document we consider to be inspired incidentally).

  27. Perhaps you are right, I am missing the point.

    Didn’t we start off discussing a gentleman that was called as a branch president, whom was also supposedly an illegal immigrant?

    Didn’t I agree with you about terrible immigration laws?

    Didn’t I also infer that we shouldn’t judge this man or the Church for these things?

    Didn’t I also state that these are troubled times that have been prophesized about, with several examples?

    Didn’t I say that you should pray about it?

    And after saying that you should pray about it, what was your response?

    “…This matter IS NOT one that requires prayer..,” and then an “except” clause came to follow…

    I feel personally, (and you have the right to disagree my friend), that I am not missing the point.

    I have stood up for a principle of not judging this brother of the church.

    The subject has changed.

    I have prompted you to pray and ask the right persons to receive the right answers, or to confirm that you indeed do have the right answers already.

    And you refuse.

    You have stated your ideals of immigration laws and the laws of obedience, and for the most part we have been in agreement. And the subject has changed to bring in a plot of terrorism, which I agree with you on.

    I have given some examples of how we could have been better at keeping our word in International Politics, and what some of the reprocussions have been for our crooked dealings.

    I have cited examples of how iniquity, or inequality, has run amok and causes us problems much like those of old.

    And I have held stedfast that we need to hold on to the Gospel, and separate politics and governmental issues from the church, and Gospel.

    Thus “rendering” unto law what is bound by law, and “rendering” unto the mercy of our creator, what is his to mete out as he sees fit.

    Eric, I will ask you where have I missed the point; BUT, know this, I will not respond, because I sense the wind that will kick up the fire between us and I have no desire to have anger or pride in my heart towards you or any other situation. I try to approach things through peace.

    I am a peaceful man, I have shed many tears on the subject of the final days, and I continue to desire that every person makes the mark, that every person receives of the mercy of our Father in Heaven and his son, our savior and redeemer, Jesus Christ.

    It is my desire that EVERYONE pray to him, and that EVERYONE know him personally; because if we don’t communicate with him, we won’t know him and his will concerning these last and final days.

    Kindest regards Eric, and please do pray about these things and ALL things…


  28. Excerpt from michellemalikn.com:

    How did they get here?
    Answer: Three came across the Mexican border
    By Michelle Malkin · May 09, 2007 04:10 PM

    So, what about the three illegal alien Jersey Jihadist suspects–the Duka brothers? Were they smuggled across the border or stowaways? ***”

    The FBI and INS are checking to see if the three other accused jihadi plotters–one a naturalized US citizen, the other two green card holders–lied on their applications.


    Update: Shocked, shocked… (not)

    Three brothers charged in the alleged Fort Dix terror plot have been living illegally in the U.S. for more than 23 years and were accepted as Americans by neighbors and friends who had no idea they would scheme to attack military bases and slaughter GIs.

    A federal law enforcement source confirmed to FOX News that the three — Dritan “Anthony” or “Tony” Duka, 28; Shain Duka, 26; and Eljvir “Elvis” Duka, 23 — also accumulated 19 traffic citations, but because they operated in “sanctuary cites,” where law enforcement does not routinely report illegal immigrants to homeland security, none of the tickets raised red flags.”

    Uh yeah that would be like sanctuary Churches as well.

    One thing I do know Sam, God’s will isn’t that His children go about supporting lawlessness and terrorists. One needn’t pray about that to know one shouldn’t support lawlessness or terrorists.

  29. Where have I stated that I support lawlessness?

    You haven’t helped me see where I have missed the point, which leads me to wonder what the point is. I think that you miss what it is that I am truly prompting you to do.

    Humble yourself and pray about it, and if you won’t do this, then I fear for where your views might lead you, or any that heed what you are claiming.

    I do feel that you are right about many things that you have said, but on the prayer issue…DEAD WRONG. And this leads me to question where you are leading us Eric.

    Search the scriptures about what is to be learned by pride of knowledge; the Bible, Book of Mormon and theDoctrine & Covenants have all stated to be contrite and humble in acknowleding our dependance on our Heavenly Father in all things.

    If you would refuse to do this, then it is out of pride, and then I would question whether validity should be given to your claims and views. And I sincerely question where it is that you might lead us in this discussion further down the road; I don’t want to follow you further or this discussion further, because your example leads us not to do what the Lord tells us to do, which is pray about all things.

    Read 2 Nephi 32: 8-9:

    “And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray ye would know that yea must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray; for the evil spirit teacheth him that he must not pray.”

    “But behold I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance many be for the welfare of thy soul.”

    I am only responding because, I gave you the oportunity to correct me where I was missing the point; and you have continued on your own course, not helping me and perhaps others to understand what point it is that you claim superiority of knowledge enough not to pray about it.

    Knowledge enough that “prayer is not needed,” which is indeed a BOLD view, such as one the Nephites of old held until—well, you know the history— I hope.

    You continue to group God’s will with the laws of the land my friend, that is what I suggest you pray about, amongst other things.

    The laws of the land don’t always reflect God’s will. The Cruisades are a good example of the laws of the land not always being in unison with God’s will; So is the extermination of millions of Jews in WWII; and so it was with the Lamanites and Nephites as well.

    It is our inability to separate “bad apples” from other types of apples that seems the problem here.

    They are similar in ways, but very different in others. Would you kick all illegals out? Even those fleeing as political refugees, that had no choice but to come to USA illegally for the sake of their lives?

    Practical Logic (to be accompanied by prayer) such as is taught at a university level should be mandantory for all people; because as logical as we all seem sometimes, we break certain mathematical rules, and unknowingly support ideas and issues that can be dangerous and misleading.

    I will state it again for all of us, so that we don’t make the mistake in the future because maybe I haven’t been clear.


    (Opinion =, or

  30. (Opinion =, or

  31. (Opinion =, or less than suporting information)

    Your examples are good ones Eric, but I fail to see any of the thousands of good stories that comes from illegal immigrants and their reasons for trying to become citizens.

    We have thousands of illegal Columbians in the states right now, fleeing a corrupt government that supports torture and death squads; a government which supports religious persecution and corruption.

    Many of these immigrants had 2 choices. One to stay in Columbia and face discrimination and persecution that supports torture and death of them and their families; or to break a law of immigration in the Unite States with the hope of being able to take the necessary steps to eventually become legal immigrants. (because currently the government is slow to acknowledge the problems of the Columbian government)

    What choice is it that your view demands that these people make? Would you have them stay in these conditions, waiting out our “slow” political processes before they flee for the safety of their families and flee for their lives?

    True, some “bad apples” may slip through the borders, and some illegals may purpatrate acts of terrorism, but should we fall short on what it is that our great nation stands for?

    We should demand that our government make strict guidelines and laws against “terrorists” being able to gain access to our country, but being that terrorists don’t raise their hands when asked “which of you is a terrorist?”, makes it kind of difficult. But should we close the borders to all of them and let the terroists change what we stand for, and force those fleeing to stay in harms way?

    We should make it difficult for terrorists to come to our country; but we should also make it possible for people to come here to seek refuge from terror as well.

    These “apples” that you keep grouping together Eric are not the same kind of apples. Pray about this, it is an extreme view based upon lumping all “apples” in to one group.

    Immigration laws may allow both kinds of illegal immigrants into our country, but they DO NOT havethe same problems, or the same consequences.

    Do you forget how lucky we are to not have to flee for our lives, and how lucky we are to have religious freedom, where we aren’t persecuted for our religious beliefs?

    Do you forget that we live in a land of oportunity, free of opression, free of death squads and those that would opress us?

    Do you forget how blessed we are, and that we should impart of these blessings to others that stand in need as well?

    Do you forget that we live in a land that stands for human rights, civil rights, freedom of choice and persuit of happiness? And that as we stand for these things, doesn’t it make sense that those fleeing countries and corrupt regemes, would flee to us for support, because of what it is that we stand for?

    What we stand for makes us a target. Terroists will try to come in regardless of where we strengthen our defences, because that is what they are trained to do. Many of them were trained by the best in the business of war, trained by our own military.

    Terroism is a terrible thing, whether it is perpatrated here or in other lands, but we stand as a beacon of light in the world and as thus, we should do all that we can to take that responsibility seriously, but not skeptically.

    Terroist organizations are trained to find the weaknesses of their enemy, and exploit it. Unfortunately, illegal immigration is seen as a way in the door for terrorists and those fleeing them.

    Do they as terroist organizations want us to take in the people that flee from them? The answer is a definate no; so the extremists turn to those that threaten their power to terrorize—those that support freedom from oppression and terroism—namely the USA.

    This is an issue for our Government to solve, and I agree with you that we should pray for our leaders to have insight and direction in this area.

    I have mostly agreed with you about immigration law when it applies to terroists, why don’t you get this? I disagree in your candor towards other illegals that flee from terroism and oppression though.

    Prayer and humility are a must if we are to survive in these days to come. Prayer and understanding are the keys; we should not be squabbling over a view that all immigrants, should be viewed as “terrorists,” because some of these same illegals are fleeing terroism too.

    (Uh, innocent until proven guilty? They are guilty of illegal immigration, true, but the reasons that they break this law should determine the level or severety of the crime that they have committed, not the other way around)

    This issue isn’t just a simple “black and white” subject, there is a tremendous amount of gray for our government and leaders to wade through; and yes pray for them too.

    Not all immigrants are potential “terrorists,” and not all Muslims are either as Mr. Griswold stated above.

    This is where I draw the line friend; this view is much like saying “ALL CARS ARE BLUE.”

    Just as in the above statement about cars, it denies all other posibilities, which is a known logical falacy.

    Eric, the different people that cross our borders are from very different backgrounds. Sadly, some may wish to inflict harm upon our way of life; yet, others admire our way of life and see our country as a land that opposes terroism, so they flee here, even though they may go about doing so in the wrong way, illegaly.

    Should we take time to pack a suitcase the during the time that our house catches fire? It wouldn’t be a bad idea from one perspective, it would make it easier to have some things in order, but what would you pack? And would you have time to pack it, before you were forced to leave? (The sad case is that when illegals flee, they often don’t have time to prepare either, they just go.)

    To each their own Eric, judge how you may, but I urge each and every one of you to pray about this and everything else, lest your hearts, and minds, fail you.

    This is what has been prophesied, these are signs of our own undoing, when we claim that we are “smart enough” to stand on our own and go against God’s commandment that we shoud take everything to him in sincere prayer.

    Do we turn these refugees and good people away? Pray about it, and study it for yourselves.

    Anyone can claim that someone is wrong, and I feel that opinion is only as good as the information supporting it, so please show us differently Eric; where it is stated that we should not pray on this or any other subject?

    Be angry with me if you feel you must, and attack me for saying what I have if you will, but asking for guidance to our reasoning seems to be something that we would all benefit from.

    Through asking Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ for guidance, reasoning and understanding in ALL things we might be able to see through the gray and see which direction we should undertake in our views, discussions and governance.

    I have done what I have needed to; I have said what the spirit has prompted to say, and if it angers you, then pray about it. If you treat it as something insignificant, then I hope that my prayers may be answered for you and any others claiming knowledge that has superiority to prayer; because these generalizations and teachings are contrary to the teachings of the Gospel.

    God bless you all, read your scriptures, and please recognize that we need to pray about everything in these last days.

    A Respectful Farewell,


  32. To correct:

    “The laws of the land don’t always reflect God’s will. The Cruisades are a good example of the laws of the land not always being in unison with God’s will; So is the extermination of millions of Jews in WWII; and so it was with the Lamanites and Nephites as well.”

    These things may have happened as prophisiezed and fortold by God, however it isn’t wasn’t his will, he continued to reach out to these persons, however they would not listen…it was the will of the people that caused these acts, and brought them to fruition.

  33. Oh please, these are not refugees, but that was a nice try. These are people who simply decided one day to abuse our largesse because we have not stopped them.

    It’s high time to halt them and the 700,000 + illegal alien criminals (that’s 1 in 12 illegal aliens) running about as fugitives from justice in this country on charges other than for illegal entry.

    Churches and individuals who assist them in hiding their status aid and abet lawlessness and in the case of the recent Fort Dix incident assisted terrorism as well. Interestingly two of those illegals recently interdicted in the midst of a terrorist plot not only came here across the Mexican border but were not here doing jobs Americans won’t do, they owned a roofing company. Well actually there were doing a job most Americans won’t do: participating in a terrorist cell.

  34. Expired Passports and Visas? So, even the Fort Dix example doesn’t quite fit into your own category, or the sources of the category that you are adamant about.

    Although be it a good example of terrorist plots that threaten to wreak havoc in our land, that we must continue to find better ways to counter, it isn’t the catch all example that you have meant it to be.

    This man whom was an illegal that we began discussing, was he a terrorist hiding in the confines of the church?

    I seriously doubt it.

    Don’t be extreme, judgmental or unchanging; this isn’t about pride, it’s about humility and our search for truth.

    Again, PRAY about it. Please, for your own sake; take my challenge and pray about this and other things Eric.

    If you won’t take my challenge, that is your choice of course, but I promise you more clarity in your own faltering testimony if you do.

    I leave you now to your own choices my friend, with the hope that you will accept my challenge and pray about it. I have the best of wishes for you my friend on your journey of discovery, may all be well with you.

    Kindest regards,


  35. Illegals must be rounded up and expelled from our country.

    Churches must not perform the evil of assisting the outlaws in lying and deceit against the government. Sovereign nations have the absolute right to secure borders.

    Samuel, your suggestion that I pray about it seems arrogant and presumptive. Instead why don’t you pray about the following questions:

    Should the Church support people in their disobedience to the moral laws of this nation?

    and if so,

    Should the Church baptize people who intentionally, knowingly and purposely commit crimes (which is a sin) where they are not required to repent for their sins before baptism ?

  36. Eric, I have prayed about these things, and I know that the Church doesn’t support breaking the laws of this land, you know this too.

    Your 2 questions are set up as a snare Eric, making it seem as though if I agree with one that the other is automatically true as well. Very well crafted, but ineffective in this case.

    First I will address this prayer issue that you avoid in your own arrogance:

    Alma 37: 36-37
    Yea, and cry unto God for ALL thy support; yea, let ALL thy doings be unto the Lord, and whithersoever thou goest let it be in the Lord; yea, let ALL thy thoughts be directed unto the Lord; yea, let the affections of thy heart be placed upon the Lord forever.

    COUNSEL WITH THE LORD IN ALL THY DOINGS, AND HE WILL DIRECT THEE FOR GOOD; yea, when thou liest down ant night lie down unto the Lord, that he may watch over you in your sleep; and when thou risest in the morning let thy heart be full of thanks unto God; and if ye do these things, ye shall be lifted up at the last day.


    Next I’ll address your argument of breaking the laws of the land:

    You argue against the severity of the offense determining the severity of punishment. If it was as you propose, we should only live by the law, then the breaking of ANY law warrants the same punishment and the same severity.

    With this viewpoint, murder and speeding have the same severity of punishment, because according to your statements all that matters is the breaking of the “law,” or being able to live perfectly by the “law;” which means that if any of the law is broken, then the person has no right to repentance and baptism to redeem themselves; let alone that these persons have an opportunity to meet restitution for any crime that they have committed in accordance to the governing laws of the land.

    Is this the model of justice?

    If your argument is to have any credibility, you need to address each and every one of these types of issues Eric, and when you do this and pray about this, you’ll find that NO ONE IS PERFECT ENOUGH TO LIVE 100% BY THE LAW. (read your scriptures)

    Christ came here to make up the difference, because even those of us that try to live life to perfection, can’t measure up. Not me, not you, not even the prophets can make it without the restitution that Christ has paid for ALL OF US.

    So, who are you to judge who Christ will accept as his own? Who are you that you should propigate an unjust system where breaking the law warrants the same penalty for the smallest or largest offense?

    Maybe your absolutism is a worse sin, does it measure up with the examples of Christ and the repentant prostitute? Did she break the law? How did Christ treat her?

    Get off your soap box and stop preaching things that just don’t add up logically, or even spiritually. These are attitudes which lead others to mistrust or lose faith in the church because of the imperfections of people in the Church, and we are a church full of sinners.

    All of us are sinners Eric, pray about that; and then when you receive this confirmation make an assesment of your own intolerance towards sinners other than yourself.

    You have made mistakes too, and I would guarantee that some have been intentional, as that is what defines sin; knowing that one is intentionally breaking a law or commandment, or going intentionally against the promptings of the spirit.

    The gospel is for sinners Eric, it is for those that want to mend their ways; it is for those TRYING to perfect themselves and their lives; it is for everyone freely no matter where they are and what they have come through in life.

    Remember that even the ANTI-NEPHI-LEHIES whom shed much blood were allowed to repent and receive forgiveness in their awful state; so it isn’t up to us to decide who is allowed forgiveness in the Lord’s eyes. Their sins were severe, ignorance to the laws and commandments or not.

    They were also taken in by the Nephites, and protected from the Lamanites after they attained forgiveness. And they became a very delightsome people in the eyes of the Lord.


    Another issue to address, that you avoid or poke at as though it is miniscule.


    ANYONE that listens to or follows your ideals towards prayer, which are contrary to the gospel, should pray and learn the truth of this first hand.

    YOU NEED PRAYER and YOU NEED TO LEARN THE TENANTS OF THE GOSPEL AGAIN, it is evident in your attitude and ramblings.

    Read this scripture and see if you recognize anything. And then I would ask you to pray about it again, then read and study your scriptures…

    Alma 34: 39-41

    Yea, and I also exhort you, my brethren, that ye be watchful unto prayer continually, that ye may not be led away by the temptations of the devil, that he may not over-power you, that ye may not become his subjects at the last day; for behold, he rewardeth you no good thing.

    And now my beloved brethren, I would exhort you to have patience, and that ye bear with all manner of afflictions; that ye do not revile against those who do cast you out because of your exceeding poverty, lest ye become sinners like unto them;

    But that ye have patience, and bear with those afflictions, with a firm hope that ye shall one day rest from all your afflictions.


    Sounds familiar?

    Best of luck to you, wherever you may land Eric; your ramblings are designed to lead others astray, and are armed with snares, designed to usurp truth, which are TOTALLY against the tenants of the “Gospel of Christ.”

    I ask you to repent Eric. I know this is bold and you may claim that it is arrogant, I know that you will do anything in your current state of mind to fight having to pray and make peace with your God and Creator; or that you will do or say anything to try to rationalize your own view which is contrary to the teachings of Christ, and the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Sanints.

    God bless you and any that would mislead us to doubt the church which tries 150% to follow the Gospel and the laws of the land.

    This warning is also to any in the church that are entering as wolves, for God is your only hope…pray to him, know his Gospel, and know him, to truly obtain a forgiveness of your sins; which is a forgiveness that isn’t just given once, it is earned each and every day.


  37. By the way, I don’t see anything funny in the immigrant games you posted on your blog “LDS POSSE COMITATUS,” that pops up when we click your name.

    What kind of fun is this? A good ole’ boys rally? Your next step should be sporting a sheet and burning crosses.

    You earn my contempt, and the contempt of any civilized or educated person.


  38. LDS Patriot, I am sure that you haven’t seen these posted “Games” that Eric has posted on his blog…

    I urge you to visit them and make a decision for yourself, whether you want to be linked to such humor.

    In this game, one is encouraged to shoot Mexicans; women, children, drug dealers, and nationalists are all to be shot. Bloody and gruesome is the idea of shooting women and children…even if they are illegals.

    If you do support this idea then you are accountable for allowing him to promote such sickness; and if you don’t support this view, then you will disable this link…



  39. It’s not a snare Sammy, you may not like reading this but the fact is the Church is through the use of Bennett’s legislation aiding and abetting illegals in our country, baptizing illegals before they repent of their chronic lawlessness and violation of moral federal statutes regarding entry into this country and the identity laws of the several states. Further some of its leaders are giving temple recommends to people who are criminals and who can’t possibly be honest in their dealings with their fellow men because they are too busy being dishonest with them.

    Are you suggesting Sammy, that lying for God is acceptable practice?

    For Pete’s sake Sammy, you seem to feel free to speak your piece but wish to deny my right to expression. Our nation is being invaded by people hostile to it and you object to a parody game linked to my blog? Where have I ever sought curtailment of your words regardless of how obnoxious they actually are? Your suggestion repeatedly that I need to pray about this or that as if you know that I have not is unbelievably obnoxious, arrogant and presumptive. Why don’t you take your own advice?

  40. I support any person’s right to have an opinion or belief, until I see hatred, anger, or vileness at the core; then like any other sincere, prayerful and spiritual person that is fortunate to be able to discern truth, I am able to recognize the true spirit of your agenda, through the guidance and promptings of the spirit.

    You may claim this discernment is not true however, which is how I would expect you to respond, but the spirit is bearing to me that you don’t have much spiritual credibility right now.


    What stance would our Heavenly Father or Christ have concerning the “Game” that you have linked to your blog?

    I’ll be “obnoxious” again and ask you to pray about who’s agenda this “parody game” is promoting.

    Either way it is your choice to decide to silently promote this hostility within our ranks at church, knowing that if you were to share your true views and share your blog with the general congregation, that it is you that would be viewed as hostile, arrogant and obnoxious; not someone like myself who merely has asked you to pray about it.

    This type of hostility is more dangerous as the external hostility that we face.

    This threatens to usurp things from within, or to scatter the flock; where as we know that if we stay unified through prayer and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, that we will be protected by the Good Shepard.

    I ask you to pray about this again; or if you don’t feel the need to do so, I implore you to discuss this “shoot the Mexicans” game amongst the church leadership to see how they feel about it…

    Last chance, pray about it, or don’t bother responding to this, because I won’t acknowledge your petty rationalizations and I urge everyone else to ignore Eric’s comments from this point on as well.

    Anyone that truly loves the Church, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ pray about this, PLEASE; and please be sincere in your search for truth. Heavenly Father reveals the truth to any that go to him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

    God bless you all and especially you Eric!

    Out of honest sincerity,


  41. You are neither honest nor sincere in trying to make this about me instead of the topic. Why don’t you stick to the topic?

  42. It also occurs to me Samuel that you think your position is the majority in the Church -maybe it is where you live and if so, more’s the pity but it is not how people in the Church view things where I live- or that yours is the better or righteous way. Seems kind of self-righteous don’t you think? Odd how many people feel that their way is the only right way. Extremely odd bordering on bizarre that you resort to an ad hominem attack over a link on my blog instead of the hundreds if not thousands of of words there, or for that matter posted here on the topic that you seem not to want to address. Streange how you cast me into the role of a wolf in sheep’s clothing when in fact my point is to keep the wolves out of the flock and keep the Church consistent with its stated membership requirements. I find it flatly amusing that you call me to repentance. Who are you to call anyone to repentance over differing political or religious views? You are arrogant, presumptive and wrong about me and likely a host of other things in life. I find it revealing that instead of talking about the issue, you choose to make infamous suggestions about me and urge others to censor me.

    You’re an odd guy Samuel.

  43. P.E. Griswold

    How interesting…and depressing at the same time… some information doesn’t always reach everyone I suppose…

    Maybe this example will help shed light on the subject that Sam was explaining:

    I have an American friend that lived in Mexico, helping to start up a factory, that unfortunately was moved south of the border.

    During his time there, he remarked at how corrupt the government was…after being a victim of having his unpaid pick up impounded by local law enforcement.

    When he contacted the law enforcement agency, they told him that his car had been impounded on suspicion of illegal activity (false), and that it would cost $10,000 to get it released.

    It was a 2003 4×4 Chevy Pick up, and he owed less than the $10,000 fee on the vehicle. When he said that he couldn’t come up with the fee right away, the officers snickered at him and said that he had exactly 2 weeks to come up with the fee or that the vehicle would become the property of the local community.

    During the 2 weeks that he was trying to come up with the fee and figure out all of the legalities…he would see the local police cheif driving his pick up around as though it was his own.

    Finally, after becoming frustrated he went to the regional authorities and got no where…they confirmed the 2 week deadline, and they said that the local authorities could follow their own guidelines and jurisdiction.

    My friend ended up calling GMAC financing…reporting the situation to them…and asked them for help concerning his payments.

    It ended up that they confirmed that they had seen this same situation many times before, and they both agreed to reposses the pick up would be the best option, as they had done so many times in simular situations. He ended up having a repossesion on his credit rating afterwards.

    After the pick up was repossesed…the local authorities began harrassing him, threatening him, and eventually he left for fear of his life……….

    Now if this situation is startling…and you may think that they must really harrass Americans in this area of Mexico, then think again. My friend said that the locals deal with much worse than this.

    Women are raped and disappear in this region, children disappear often, and bodies are found years later in the desert…not by the law enforcement though unfortunately.

    If these conditions truly do exist in this region and others, then who would blame them for running acrossed a thinly guarded area of the border, to face a penalty of jail in a more just society?

    The corruption of these societies is real, incase any doubt this, and it is rampant through out many of the countries south of the border.

    I have European friends that traveled for 6 months in rural areas of South America, that took “bribe” money with them in order to get acrossed the borders of one country to another, because the border “thugs,” as they called them…would detain them indefinately if they didn’t pay them.

    Pretty interesting…I think Samuel gets the point. The point being that there are many person’s that are illegaly in our country that would rather be put in jail for illegally crossing the border…than to face the corruption that is all around them. Naturally they run to the United States, because even if we prossecute them, we will be more just in handling them than their own government.

    Taking that into view Eric, it does seem a bit ignorant and very obnoxious of you to include a link to your Border Patrol Game, where you can have fun shooting some individuals…”breeders” as your game calls them, or women bearing children…that may in all likelyhood include a woman fleeing with her children because her husband disappeared never to be seen again, or was shot by local police because he wouldn’t compromise his ethics or morals when confronted by this type of corruption.

    I have another friend, a legalized Mexican immigrant that has told me stories of when he was a youth. He told me the story about his sister, whom was raped several times by a group of teenage boys…that included sons of local polititians, local businessen and police officers…before their family came acrossed the border in fear and hope.

    That wouldn’t make me feel very good Eric, if I was in your position. You have only one-sided information…and I would immediately remove any connection to that sort of hurtful game if I were in your position….

    By the way, those stories are true.

    Eric, maybe you should pray like Samuel is asking you to do…I don’t think that he is being arrogant in asking you to do this.

    Truth is truth…


  44. What makes you think I don’t? What gives you or anyone the right to suggest that others are deficient in their spiritual duties because they have differing views on a topic?

    I do not care what their motiviation is for being here. I care that we enforce our laws and that the Church does not baptize people who are criminals.

    I suppose the President Romney didn’t “get it ” either when he wrote:

    Marion G. Romney in “The Rule of Law,” Ensign, Feb 1973, 2 said:

    “The law of Christ” is all-inclusive. It concerns not only rules that shall govern beyond the grave, but also the law of nature here and now-local, national, and international. Latter-day Saints should strictly obey the laws of the government in which they live. By our own declaration of faith we are committed to do so, for we declare to the world that “we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” (A of F 1:12.) This we do in harmony with the Lord’s command: “Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land. “Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.” (D&C 58:21-22.) “Civil authority is of divine origin. It may be more or less adapted to the needs of man; more or less just and benevolent, but, even at its worst, it is better than anarchy. Revolutionary movements that aim at the abolition of government itself are contrary to the law of God. …” (Doctrine and Covenants Commentary [Deseret Book Co., 1954], p. 339.) When the “rule of law” breaks down in a family, a community, a state, or a nation, chaos reigns.”

    Have you prayed about that?

  45. P.E. Griswold

    Boy Eric, I am sorry to offend you by agreeing with Samuel on this issue…and I am sorry that you are so easily offended, and blindly offend others in your path through a hardened heart.

    It is obvious that you are very defiant on anyone suggesting that you pray. (the scriptures are full of examples of this attitude, especially the Book of Mormon)

    I believe that Samuel must pray very often, and as for myself I also take everything to the Lord in prayer.

    Pres. Romney was correct about the rule of law, and the thing to remember is that there are 2 facets to justice as Samuel is inferring.

    There is the law, and there is MERCY. Mercy is needed for everyone…and the Lord explains this in the scriptures.

    Samuel’s example of the repentant prositute is a good one in this case; even the Lord didn’t condemn her for not following the law, he showed her mercy even when he had the authority to condemn her…and her accusers were no where to be seen when he had mercy on her.

    I, nor Samuel are suggesting not following the rule of law.But if you don’t give mercy, you won’t receive any yourself…because if you judge merely by the law, you will be judged yourself by the law and that makes it impossible for you to be forgiven yourself.

    It perplexes me that a person would take things to such an extreme…with no tolerance for others misfortune, and with no understanding of Christ’s demands of us if we are to return to live with our Father in Heaven again.

    If we have no charity, then we have no salvation for ourselves. If we judge rashly or harshly, then we recieve the same at the time of our judgment. I don’t know how you can miss this while reading the scriptures and learning what Christ demands of us.

    I don’t judge you Eric, I am not fit to do so, but neither are you fit to be the judge of these things when they concern salvation. The Lord will deal with things in his own way and in his own time, including those that become hard-hearted in these latter days.

    Best of luck on the road you are traveling!

    I won’t contend more with you…it would be only out of pride.

    Paul Griswold

  46. Larry Schneider

    I agree with Eric. The word “magnify” should be included in the Article of Faith. I don’t care about the immigrants at all because I am convinced that the Mexican government along with other S. American countries have sent spies to our country to spy out our liberties, (economy) included. They have reported back that the white man is weak, stupid, slow, easily fooled, fearfull and cowardly, and to go forth and seize the country from us because we’re to scared to fight. This harmonizes with Foxs’ insistance that we through a red carpet out to them or else. Fox, an ENGLISH word depicting an animal well known for it’s ability to out wit its’ enemy, humm! Gee maybe I’m just being paranoid, but I’ll bet you that “Fox” ain’t his real last name. I know that those governments would destroy us all if they could do it. Its that simple. You wouldn’t just let anyone come into your house and just take what they want would you ? Well it’s really the same thing when it comes to our country. The U.S. government has made a deal with mexico in exchange for something. We are being blackmailed somehow by thug minded men, in the attempt to take our freedom and
    destroy the USA period. E.T.Benson said,”Brothers… an evil power is trying to destroy the USA!” No offense but people, especially 3rd, 4th generation white people need to pull their heads out of their asses and grow up! Every choice we make to hire an illegal immigrant to save a couple of bucks and spit in the face of your own brother of your own race is to me an act of treason of a wretched miserable soul. Yeh, I don’t care to pick lettuce all day as Bush keeps trying to push, but that doesn’t mean, “therefore I’m not willing to work at all”. That is pure horse manure and Bush knows it. What are we going to give our children when we help people ,who secretely despise us and wish we would go away, and give your childrens, inheritance to them!? I see them laughing at how incredibly stupid we are.

  47. P.E. Griswold

    Good luck with your views gentlemen…I hope that they serve you well…

    Best wishes in your beliefs…mine lead me in another direction than where this is leading…


    Paul Griswold

  48. Paul,

    What on earth makes you think I am offended? I am not remotely offended. I simply refuted a silly position and asked a couple of pointed questions?

  49. P.E. Griswold

    Eric, because if you don’t understand why it is that I am stepping away from this conversation as I did with the last one that I had, and why Samuel is walking away…then I don’t think it is you that gets the point of dropping this conversation from the other side of things.

    You are extreme in your promotion that these things are evil, yet you say that you aren’t offended…and to me Samuel doesn’t seem the odd one here.

    I don’t care to discuss this anymore, as the things you promote are offensive to some of my personal friends that have had other experiences with this issue than your “knowledge base.” And you don’t seem capable of acknowledging that your views could be considered to be wrong based upon other facts that you seem to not want to credit.

    As you stated, you don’t care about those illegals…so be it. But I do care as I have heard terrible examples of why some of these persons flee in the way that they do.

    You seem to miss the point that your Border Patrol Game is violent, offensive and in poor taste…

    As I have said, Good luck with your beliefs and where they may take you.

    This is my last word on the subject…

    Best wishes…

    Paul Griswold

  50. Thank you!


  51. Obviously you have never entered the forum of forensic or legal argument. You seem to ascribe non-extant emotion where instead there exists only a forceful argument. It isn’t necessary to get emotionally involved to forward a hard argument. I am not remotely offended but the two of you seem to be.

    Neither of you can accept the idea that members of the Church can vigorously oppose the illegal criminal threat at the border without being somehow uncharitable.

    Well here’s a news flash enforcing the law is neither uncharitable nor wrong. It’s moral and correct.

    You also seem to have a problem with my saying that the Church ought not baptize criminals or send them unrepentant to the temple. These people are purposely committing in many cases multiple crimes and have not repented. The Church ought not baptize people who lie, deceive and steal (that’s what it is when you accept services and employment to which you are not entitled).

    If they want to come here let them do it lawfully. Let us stand for what it actually says in the 12th Article of Faith or has that too been suspended for illegals?

  52. And I note that the two of you while responding with hearts dripping blood refuse to engage the following instruction from President Romney:

    “The law of Christ” is all-inclusive. It concerns not only rules that shall govern beyond the grave, but also the law of nature here and now-local, national, and international. Latter-day Saints should strictly obey the laws of the government in which they live. By our own declaration of faith we are committed to do so, for we declare to the world that “we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” (A of F 1:12.) This we do in harmony with the Lord’s command: “Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land. “Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.” (D&C 58:21-22.) “Civil authority is of divine origin. It may be more or less adapted to the needs of man; more or less just and benevolent, but, even at its worst, it is better than anarchy. Revolutionary movements that aim at the abolition of government itself are contrary to the law of God. …” (Doctrine and Covenants Commentary [Deseret Book Co., 1954], p. 339.) When the “rule of law” breaks down in a family, a community, a state, or a nation, chaos reigns.”

    Care to address the actual issue instead of your liberal bleeding heart tendencies which make for wonderful sob stories but don’t address the issues.

  53. P.E Griswold

    What part of I am done discussing this issue with you don’t you understand. I am through with this discussion…it just isn’t worth the effort, when you start attacking the person rather than the subject.

    Name calling and labeling are 2 traits that I feared were coming next to the discussion from your side Eric…and that IS the “actual issue.”

    Usually most of us grow beyond this during our youth…seek some counseling, or anger management.

    Take care Eric, best of luck to you!

    Paul Griswold

  54. I read this string with some interest- all I can say is I come down on the side of Samuel and Paul, not just because they call on Eric to pray. He seems to indicate that he does pray. The Church follows the law both sides agree except for that detail about the church tolerating illegal immigration.
    Eric, there is one big problem with that law and that is that it sucks. How could that be in our country? Maybe its because these laws, there are dozens of them on the books, are so confusing it takes an expert immigration lawyer to figure them out. I have worked with hundreds of immigrants both legal and illegal for almost forty years and most of the illegals have been promised all kinds of things from so called good Americans, some who even claim to be Christians. Most of them aren’t even sure of their status and many, because of dozens of conficts in the various laws, are not deportable. Few of them, only those who are under deportation orders, have been judged to be criminals, so how can anyone judge them to be “lawless” in our land of laws? Many thousands are in a kind of limbo, if you don’t mind a Catholic term, awaiting their cases to be judged. The Church gets involved when law has to be enforced – such as in the case where the young man sent on the mission had to go to his home country. Otherwise, they would have to have the wisdom of Solomon to make judgements on these kinds of cases – in addition to going to law school and getting advanced training in immigration law. The bottom line: I haven’t heard of a single case where a Church official has encouraged anyone to defy a deportation order. So, the worry you have is just not happening unless you can give me some hard evidence I don’t know about.
    One other point, most of what you are objecting to appears to just be suspicions. Remember, that the middle-eastern- claiming- to -be the -only- true -believers- in -Islam Nazi extremists deal in the same thing. That’s what they use to indoctrinate the young jihadists about the rest of the world and particularly the USA. If that’s the kind of doubt that the people who play those shooting Messican games have planted in your mind I will pray that they don’t have any more influence, just as I frequently pray that the jihadists don’t influence more young people.

    Another point of law, we haven’t declared war on Mexico since 1845. Some of those locos who live in my area say we are at war with Mexico now. At least some of them think we should start shooting with real bullets, so who is thinking about becoming truly lawless? I don’t see much difference between their hate and the jihadists. Maybe those little Caesars in Congress can make an immigration law that truly is fair and enforceable, but I doubt it. Meanwhile, just don’t be so hard on the leaders in the Church. They aren’t called to solve these problems, too.

  55. “Meanwhile, just don’t be so hard on the leaders in the Church. They aren’t called to solve these problems, too.”

    Nobody is asking them too. I’d settle for leadership just not making things worse.

  56. By the way Ronge, sovereign nations have the absolute right to secure borders against intrusion from extra-nationals. There is nothing “hateful” about national security or about the desire to perserve law and order against those so completely without integrity and a belief in law that they simply choose to commit crimes and chronic violations, lying and deceiving their way through life.

    There is absolutely zero parallel to jihadists in the actions of patriots to close the borders and enforce the law. In case you hadn’t noticed patriots are defensive in nature working to secure their borders, jihadists are offensive in nature (both meanings fully intended) going where they have no right to be and killing and maiming innocent people in their quest to force their desires upon others. Come to think of it jihadist would be rather descriptive of the attitudes and actions of illegals themselves particularly the reconquista type criminal.

  57. Here’s a thought from this website:

    “The current prophet and president of the Church, Gordon B. Hinckley stated, “I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members. They are in violation of the civil law. They know they are in violation of the law. They are subject to its penalties. The Church, of course, has no jurisdiction whatever in this matter.”

    “If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church.”

    And Illegal Aliens are somehow different??? Their actions violate the laws of the Church, civil law and the Church has no jurisdiction over it.

  58. Larry Schneider

    Igotta an Idea, Lets literally seperate the whole U.S.-Mexican border, Wouldn’t that be great! Lets just dynamite a 10 mile wide seperation , physically and alltogether permanantely sepererate the U.S. from them, with a 10-20 mile width of good ol Pacific Ocean! Yeah! ,20 miles wide between them and us and along the entire lenghth, from Texa to California and twenty miles outward! Ha!

  59. No need SHAMNESTY is DEAD!! 46 yeas. Reid and his snivelling ilk go down with their own heavyhanded tactics.

    Now I have two questions:

    1. When will the citizens on Nevada wake up to the fact that Harry Reid is not working in their best interests and dump that piece of stool?

    2. In the latter days it was prophesied that the Constitution would hang by a thread until the Elders of the Church would rescue it. Who knew that it would be Harry Reid and Bennett hacking away at the document with machetes in cooperation with Chappaquiddick Ted and George W. Bush? Maybe the prohpecy simply refers to the guilt of the LDS community for electing those two boobs to begin with and the response by individual LDS to correct that egregious error.

  60. Larry Schneider

    The statement I was told was, that the constitution would hang by a thread and IF IT IS TO BE SAVED, then only the Elders of the church would be the only guys with enough common sense to do so. But,’ IF” is a mighty big supplication to the Almighty. He is not so ready to restore anything that has all but been lost through utter neglegence.

  61. I’ve about lost hope of the “Elders” or even general church members doing anything about saving the constitution when the vast majority of them do not even understand it much less care about it.. The general public is even worse. I run a singles list and have been in on a few LDS political lists in the past. There are far more people that seem to think socialism is some form of Charity than those who think the Constitution is an inspired document which should be much more revered and followed than it is.

  62. Since you focus on the Islamic terrorist issues, you should read my analysis of modern terrorism in light of the Nephites’ Gadianton robber problem. See my recent articles in “Desert Saints Magazine.” (www.desertsaintsonline.com) I’d be happy to supply you with this and many other bits on the political ramifications of our day and time.
    — Anthony Larson

  63. Scott,
    You are very accurate concerning the lack of commitment by the “elders” or church in general understanding or even caring about the Constitution. Some very strong evidences of this are the numerous instances of violations of God-given rights shown only as the tip of the iceberg in the stories of a little old lady manhandled and arrested for not watering her lawn and a man tazered twice for not signing his name to a citation. Through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord made it clear that He gave the Constitution as an extension of the greatest gift ever, free agency, out of love for His children. It was out of responsibility, which always comes with true liberty, to be eternally vigilant in protecting it. The church as a whole, and the elders in particular, have terribly dropped the ball. As it says “IF it is to be saved at all.”

  64. Joseph Atwater

    Bruce R McConkies views on Patriotism as stated in his commentaries of the LDS Bible Dictionary.
    Under the Heading of “Jonah” half way down the paragraph. “The writer (of the book of Jonah) is opposing a narrowmindedness that would confine the LOVE OF GOD to a single nation. He shows Jehovah reigns everywhere over sea and land;even in the heathen world the minds of men are conscious of Sin………”Even the heathen sailors and the Children of Ninevah (Iraq) are capable of repenetence”

  65. Jae Mackensie

    I have been studying the events of 9/11 along with warnings of past prophets for about 4 years now. I have looked at both sides of the argument and I’m still keeping an open mind to both.

    I just wanted to leave a brief comment but also tell you that I am going to spend more time reading your website when I have time.

    On your ABOUT page you say that you consider Islam to be the secret combination referred to in the Book of Mormon. But a couple thoughts come to mind:

    1. Moroni was careful to present to us the fact that the Secret Combination was led by Satan who is the father of lies – this implies that this secret combination works primarily through deception. I don’t know that Islamists (or terrorists) are using deception as their tool so much as they might be using fear and brutal acts of violence (along with cowardice) as their tool. Also, I don’t believe that the majority of Islamists (non-terrorists) believe in this “Jihad”.

    2. The Book of Mormon speaks of Secret Combinations as plural. I believe Satan works strategically and he has many groups working for him. Consider what we learn in the Temple when Adam asks Lucifer about his apron, Lucifer relies that it symbolizes his Priesthoods – plural. We know that a priesthood is an organization as well as an authority. I’m just saying that I cannot single out Islam as the sole secret combination. And I think Satan is much much more intelligent than to use Jihad as a vehicle to push his agenda.

    3. The purpose of the Secret Combination is to destroy the freedoms of all people and all nations. Is this the stated goal of Jihad and Islamists? And how effective are they anyway? Not as effective as certain groups have been or are being. For example, the groups who are forming unions such as the European Union, South American Union and the coming North American Union. These entitites would render individual nations’ constitutions invalid. I don’t find many Islamists behind the planning or organization of these unions. What I DO find are some muslims who are rather tired of British and US influence and control over their oil and their national affairs. There’s the argument about a “terrorist” actually being a freedom fighter. We could easily label the Boston colonists as terrorists with today’s definition.

    4. Moroni speaks specifically to the Gentiles (current Americans) that we might repent, awake, and not support the combination for power and gain. Now, this can be interpreted in different ways but I interpret it to mean that the combination is to be among us – in our government. Moroni seemed to describe the combination throughout the BoM to be a group that infiltrated government and then protected themselves by being bound by oaths and using premeditaed, calculated murder. 3Nephi, praying on his tower exposed such a scenario.
    Our modern day prophets have spoken on this and seem to back this up. Plus, I don’t see those who support Islam as getting much power and gain.

    5. Works of murder done by Secret Combination. How many people have Islamists killed compared to the millions upon millions that others like MaoTzeDong, PolPot, Stalin, Hitler, etc have?

    Anyway – the reason I leave this comment is because when I read some of your stuff, you start off as portraying yourself as being objective but when you get into the meat of the matter it tends to go one way. I felt that your belief in who the Secret Combination may be influences who you will defend and who you will seek to counter argue.

    I love this country too and believe it is God’s choice land. But I don’t want it to blind me to the possibility that we may very well be infiltrated by Secret Combinations and that the events of 9/11 and other world events are instigated by factions within.

    No one has a perfect argument and it’s impossible to secure convincing evidence by being completly objective. But if you honestly take all the arguments and stack them up on both sides you should see that the facts are not in favor the official 9/11 account given us. They lean more towards the possibility that they were instigated by someone other than Islamists.

    Along with you, I see inaccuracies in all the Loose Change videos, the Scholars for 911, Prof. Jones, Alex Jones, etc. Everyone is over-eager to persuade people. But seriously, no mortal can know the complete truth of anything. We all choose a side and apply faith to walk with and fight on that decision.

    So, if you are going to be objective, be objective and be fair in your questioning. Question your own position as harshly as you do of those like Prof. Jones. I’m not defending him … I’m just saying. Also, demand all the details in the official account of 9/11 as you do with the arguments of the opposite side.


  66. Jae.
    You challenge Patriot’s opinion that Islam is evil. You say you don’t know if the Islamists are using deceit as much as fear and other brutal acts. Let me assure you they are. Today’s jihad, the 3rd in Islam’s 1450 year history, is being waged by primarily by tealth as they understand they cannot conquer us militarily. Like an iceberg, only 1/8 is visible (terrorism). Below the surface and unseen are infiltration, education, intimidation, demographics, propaganda, dawa (missionary work), and financial warfare. The religion teaches it is permissible to lie to advance the cause of Islam…or save oneself, or placate a woman.
    You say you don’t believe Islamists believe in jihad. Wrong! Struggle (jihad) to bring all nations and all people under Islamic domination is clearly prescribed in Islamic scripture…”by the sword” if necessary, and ALL Muslims are to engage in Jihad either by the sword, the tongue, the pen, or their other resources.
    You think Satan is too intelligent to use jihad to push his agenda. Wrong. What more clever way than to use non-violent tactics, as well as violence, to cause a nation to crumble from within, and to do this while posing as a religion and claiming 1st Amendment protection.
    You wonder how many deaths Islam is responsible for as compared to Hitler, Pol-pot, Mao, Stalin, etc. Historians who have summed up the deaths in the various campaigns of Islam over the last 14o0 years have generally agreed that the total killed is 270 million, and agree that Muslim aggression has been the greatest killer of mankind in the history of the world.
    You need to read the Qur’an, study the hadith, and get up to date on the history of Islam!

  67. An appeal to LDS patriots in Utah

    I am active LDS and living in Central California. I am also a member of Oath Keepers, a national organization of active, veteran, and retired military, police and government folks who believe their oath to defend the Constitution does not have an expiration date. Anyone, veteran or not, who wants to help preserve our Bill of Rights is invited to join Oath Keepers.

    I encourage anyone interested to view the web site at oathkeepers.org/ As members of the Church we understand perhaps better than most that the Constitution is a God-inspired document and that men were raised up in these last days to bless this land with real Freedom.

    The Constitution adopted in 1787 enabled the Restoration that began 40 years later. In my humble opinion, Oath Keepers should have thousands of LDS members. However, less than 40 Utahns have currently joined.

    The Constitution, as written by the framers, is now hanging by a thread … need I say more?

  68. I use to think that communism would be what takes over the world. After all, the communistic rule in Russia has taken country after country. China has their brand and has killed millions in their own country. Communism has subjugated many lands and peoples. But not I’m thinking like you, that perhaps it is Islam, or maybe Islam and Communism join hands? But then, maybe it is all types of “isms” and religious beliefs which believe that the end justifies the means. Satan has infiltrated all religious, economic, political, arenas and all countries lands and peoples and works through them to bring about his supposed goal of slavery of all mankind. oops, I meant to say that I am thinking “like you”, that it IS Islam which will seek to take over the world.

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